“King Yannai said to his wife: “Do not be afraid of the Perushim, or from those who are not Perushim. Rather, Fear only the pretenders, who look like Perushim but are in reality not pious; for their actions are like the wicked actions of Zimri, and the seek reward like the righteous Pinchas.”
…”But democracy is the best system we have, and it was endorsed by the Rebbe,”…
…”we must give ourselves enough time to learn who the candidates are; to learn all we can about each of them; to listen to, consider, question, and debate all the various things different parties are inevitably going to say about them;”…
…Yes, it’s absurd, and yes, it would all be very amusing—if it weren’t the way we have actually been running our community. So let’s stop this. The real problem with this bad old way of doing things is that people have no idea whom to believe, and have absolutely no time to investigate what all those flyers and internet posts are talking about”…
Yitzchok Wagshul in his resent Op-ed about having more time to openly debate issues.
After Wagshul pretends to be fair, balanced, open minded, happy to engage in open dialogue, because, unlike most of the baalei machlokes out there, he is a person of good will, not ill-will; a man of empathy, not hostility etc…. Mr. Wagshul reveals his true colors. All it took was a few comments challenging him, in an open democratic form.
Here we will finally discover the real reason why the Shomrim/Hershkop deserved prosecution in a court of law. If ever there was a reason to lock up six innocent Jews, its right here…
Mr. Wagshul for the first time admits that he was a hired gun, something he failed and even tried avoiding mentioning in the past.
41. Yitzchok Wagshul wrote:
To # 38 and all the rest of you apes:
You know what? I can’t believe this! I wrote earlier that I respect and appreciate the Shomrim, and, when I read that a person who, presumably, is in the practice of endangering himself to protect me had been offended because he erroneously believed my wording had been directed at the Shomrim Six trial, I took the time and trouble to publicly apologize and to explain that I hadn’t been referring to that at all. Now I read this latest comment, that nevertheless continues to rant that I, a man who (like everyone else) has his own problems—the need to work so my children can eat, for example, or, in my case, a debilitating illness r”l—should nevertheless have quit my job, checked out of the hospital (I’m being dramatic: Boruch Hashem, I was not in the hospital at the time, but I wish to make my point as clearly as possible) and, at my own expense, published a newspaper and mailed it to everyone on the Tzach list so people could read about YOUR trial. What are you, crazy? Go publish your own newspaper, at your own expense!
What part of “I stopped publishing the Crown Heights Chronicle in 2006” didn’t you understand? I am not an “off duty officer”; I am not an officer at all. I now work as a professional writer and editor, and that’s how I try to solve the problem of food, rent, and all those other little problems you don’t seem to consider. As I clearly disclosed in the paper that I did recently publish, I was hired to write about the recent elections by clients who also paid the printing and mailing expenses. YOU did not come to me, as they did, during the Shomrim Six trial and say, “We wish to hire you to write about what’s going on; we’ll pay for your time and cover the costs.” Therefore, I could not do it. It’s as simple as that.
But the real shame of all this is that I have now changed my mind. I no longer have so much respect for the Shomrim after all. If you people are so unreasonable, if you can’t think straight and are only able to howl and snap and spew hatred at others, then you can’t be swayed by dialogue. Only force will work with apes like you. That lends credence to the possibility that, indeed, you were in the wrong during the incident in question, and the only way to deal with you turned out to be with badges and guns and handcuffs. I am not saying that is now my opinion of that incident—I don’t know any more about the objective facts now than I did before you ticked me off. But at least I now understand why some people might think you cannot be reasoned with. It’s because—as a matter of fact—you cannot be reasoned with.
And it’s not just me. I don’t know what would motivate you fools to keep howling at me even after I clarified—not that my original op-ed was unclear, or even had anything to do with you to begin with—that I happened to respect the Shomrim. But you did, in front of however many people read this blog (which, as far as I know, is a lot). So you have shown not just me, but the whole rest of the world (assuming this Shomrim-oriented blog allows this latest comment to be posted), what type of people you are. The only thing that might help change that perception is if you come forward and apologize to me, as I came forward and apologized to you.
But this time, don’t be such cowards: have the decency (like Chaim Hershkop does) to sign your names.
WIS will not bother ripping him apart as others in the comments have already taken the liberty to do so and a good good job they have done. So here they are…
42. Chaim Hershkop Shomrim Six wrote:
“37. Yitzchok Wagshul wrote:
Chaim, I cannot tell you what others believe; only what I would LIKE to believe. Please read more carefully next time.”
Your “LIKE to believe” is total fantasy and shows how you despite the facts would find some way to justify them.
Why would you like to believe this?
The arrest took three weeks.
The Shomrim Six had to go to court for appearances for two years.
The Mosrim did not get any permission to do this Mesira.
The Mosrim were called to a Din Torah a day before trial and made a joke out of the Bais Din.
Chabad.info, A Meshichist web site gave the Shomrim six a guilty verdict without even knowing the facts.
There was no apology made, by anybody.
Nobody stepped forward to claim responsibility.
SO, what would lead you to “LIKE to believe”- “that they were sincere and felt anguish over what they believed themselves compelled to do.”?
Give us a little hint that would point us to this direction.
How is this fantasy connected to realty in anyway?
I, Chaim Hershkop did meet with you out side the polling stations on Tuesday, July 6, 2010. I discussed what I wrote above and you responded as you did above.
Since then you did not try to reach me, to inquire more about the going ons in court.
Even as we stood there talking all you were really interested in was what took place at 749 Eastern PKWAY on December 29, 2007. Which after a six week court case is not the issue. What took place that night (after a six week court case and after being found NOT GUILTY) is irrelevant now.
If I and my fellow Shomrim six would have a Din Torah about this issue, we would not even be discussing what took place that night. All of that was dealt with in court (for six long weeks…3000 pages of transcripts).
All you wanted was a reason to ”LIKE to believe that maybe they could have been justified to do this Mesira.
You can give excuses all you want why you didn’t come to court, all they are (as one wrote above) good excuses.
You don’t have a 9 to 5 job. The trial took place only blocks from Crown Heights. The trial was not exclusively for journalist and you could have shown up as a concerned person. Oh, did I mention that the case lasted for six long weeks. Did you not have an opportunity this whole time to show up for even an hour?
44. Shimmy Cohen wrote:
When pushed a little, Yitzchok Wagshul confesses. He may claim the confession was given under duress, but confess he did. He doesn’t like Shomrim. He doesn’t consider them to be human beings – he calls them apes. Following that logic, what is wrong with massering on apes??? Human rules do not apply to apes!
The designation of apes goes far beyond actual members of shomrim. It captures anyone who supports or sympathizes with Shomrim. On a broader definition, anyone who disagrees with Wagshel is an ape and need not be treated as a human being. Humanistic rights (much less, Jewish rights) have no application to apes.
One more point. When Wagshul fails to articulate a point using logic or reason, he stoops to name calling. Seems like someone needs to grow up.
I don’t normally sign my name on blogs but I wish to save you from denigrating yourself further by calling me a coward or some other name.
43. Chaim Hershkop wrote:
“That lends credence to the possibility that, indeed, you were in the wrong during the incident in question, and the only way to deal with you turned out to be with badges and guns and handcuffs.”
Yes, yes yes!
Now you are speaking Mr. Wagshul.
The truth comes out.
All that had to be done was write a few comments and the venom start to explode and splatter all over the place.
If only you were the prosecutor in our case.
Your honor members of the jury, these six people are guilty because they write comments, to make it worse they are unreasonable comments, lock them up and throw away the key.
You are right with one point. All these years my family has been prosecuted with mesira and propaganda for one and only reason.
FREE SPEECH; for speaking out. For saying it as it is. For that you and your Mossrim friends have been prosecuting us?
Guess what, you will not shut me up. If this is my crime, then guilty as charged.
If the Mosrim hate me then I’m doing something very right!
My great grandfather died because he helped another Jew.
My grandfathers spent 5 years in Siberia as a slave because he didn’t want another Jew to get in trouble. Those five years he stood by his brothers and stuck up for out G-d no matter the risk.
I stand ready!
54. MaDDinBklyn wrote:
Bravo Bravo to Chaim Hershkop, well played and beautiful outcome, with a few strokes on a keyboard you exposed the pure evil hatred of a thin skinned supposedly religious big bearded Jewish pretender, indeed Mr. Wagshul claims to have sold his soul for a few dollars pay, but in reality he gave it away for free. Into the pit for Mr. Wagshul the silver tongued snake, into the pit he must go.